wing chun praha

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Příspěvekod zipule » úte 15. bře, 2011 18:44

I think you don't understand, that czech people expect, that if you are a visitor, that you will act as one. Instead of it you've tried to walk here and say something as "all you did during last years, you did wrong you should do it my way, we in our contry know much more than you". We are not familiar with this kind of manners. We don't act with foreigners politely, just because they are foreigners. They have to deserve a trust and earn respect at first. I don't see problem in what you are writing right now but I think you've not started well and the irony, that you can see right now, is caused by your firts impression to us. You have to realize, that it is you, who has to adapt to local people, not them. So many countries so many customs ;)
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Příspěvekod roza » stř 16. bře, 2011 8:49

rockyjoe
As Zipule says.Sad but true.

But ok,let use your situation,talk about wingchun and be useful.
What would you recommend to practise to a guy in your situation - no school,no partner?
Whats your week training schedule,which exercises,tools etc. you employ?
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Příspěvekod rockyjoe » stř 16. bře, 2011 9:23

zipule píše:I think you don't understand, that czech people expect, that if you are a visitor, that you will act as one. Instead of it you've tried to walk here and say something as "all you did during last years, you did wrong you should do it my way, we in our contry know much more than you". We are not familiar with this kind of manners. We don't act with foreigners politely, just because they are foreigners. They have to deserve a trust and earn respect at first. I don't see problem in what you are writing right now but I think you've not started well and the irony, that you can see right now, is caused by your firts impression to us. You have to realize, that it is you, who has to adapt to local people, not them. So many countries so many customs ;)

I can understand what you mean,
but the relationships between colleagues are different, in my opinion.

if our boss say to us that you have to explain me something, it is not important if you like me or not, and if you respect me or not.

Only is important that you has been assigned to teach this foreigner the job:
now someone says he/she doesn t speack spanish, the other says that he?she is busy.and so on .

I can understand that I have to gain my personal respect.but good manners are always,and not only for who earned your respect.Good manners are a personal behaviour, not related to the person you face,foreigner or not.

Just my opinion.In my country all we say good morning.Respect maybe needs more time.But goog manners are our deal for ourselves.

For example I know here a person, from this forum(example),we agree to see on a saturday morning, I come and the travel take me more than 1 hour and one half.I wait about an hour.Then when I come back, I read that half an hour before the hour of the meeting, he deleted the meeting itself because he had forgotten that....(bullshit).This has nothing to see with earning respect.He had not good manners.for me.

maybe do you want to say that czech people don t need to be respected,while foreigner people yes?Are you sure?
Don t you think, from a foreignere point of view, that foreigner people who sees that,ignores czech people,and creates little groups for mutual help and friendship?Is it not a little xenophobic all this?
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

@roza(sorry I don t know how to quote 2 different persons :()

I don t know if I can be useful for someone.It is enough if I can be useful for myself, sometimes :)
In my case, I train in the gym, using weights.Then I use the bag there,when possible.At home I train some movement from forms.I use the mirror to see movements.

I train also once a week in a Judo dojo,to improve some skill at a shorter distance,and to have partners,to learn more.
Sometimes,but it is a little rare, I train with a czech friend,who is also WC instructor, in chi sao and wing chun skills.I asked him if he wanted to create something together,(so it is more easy for him to train together without limits)but he didn't accept, explaining me his personal and technical reasons for that.He is a good guy, anyway..
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Příspěvekod ukropcany » stř 16. bře, 2011 9:33

rockyjoe píše:For example I know here a person, from this forum(example),we agree to see on a saturday morning, I come and the travel take me more than 1 hour and one half.I wait about an hour.Then when I come back, I read that half an hour before the hour of the meeting, he deleted the meeting itself because he had forgotten that....(bullshit).This has nothing to see with earning respect.He had not good manners.for me.
This was just an example, or it happend?
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Příspěvekod zipule » stř 16. bře, 2011 9:59

rockyjoe píše:I can understand what you mean,
but the relationships between colleagues are different, in my opinion.

if our boss say to us that you have to explain me something, it is not ...


You still have the same problem. You're saying "how it should be" and I'm trying to tell you "how it is". If you think you can change the attitude of czech people, ok go on. But I think the easier way to get along with them is changing your attitude. You can't change people, you can just change yourself. Me personally, I'm not trying hard to get along with somebody, to be the best friend with my colleauges immediately. I think it needs some time. I think you live more "colleauges=friends like" in your country.

If I give you example too, i dislike that you foreigners say: Hey good morning, how are you? And you are expecting, that I answer: Hey I'm great, thanks! And i a fact you don't really wanna know how I am ;) It's not honest to me. If I want to know, I ask. If I'm not interested in your business, i don't ask.
Naposledy upravil zipule dne stř 16. bře, 2011 10:01, celkově upraveno 1
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Příspěvekod rockyjoe » stř 16. bře, 2011 10:00

ukropcany píše:
rockyjoe píše:For example I know here a person, from this forum(example),we agree to see on a saturday morning, I come and the travel take me more than 1 hour and one half.I wait about an hour.Then when I come back, I read that half an hour before the hour of the meeting, he deleted the meeting itself because he had forgotten that....(bullshit).This has nothing to see with earning respect.He had not good manners.for me.
This was just an example, or it happend?
it happened.

I don t wait the most of respect from you(even if I were czech),but I want to be treated as a human being...with courtesy.

to easy to have good manners only with the boss at work!

in the example, I contacted with this person by email,so I couldn t read he deleted the appointment just half hour before!He knew form the previous day he had other problem at 6 o clock in the morning with his own wing chun school(maybe examinations).the alibi was that he was tired.Even tired, he would have had to come to the meeting and say to me that was not a good moment.Good manners.

I ask if it depends from german and russian people's invasions,your misconfiance with foreigner people.At work russian guy are looked at with suspect,for example.

But now you are of the new generation.good to mantain historical memory.Not so good,fo me, to mantain,for the new generation you are,this culture of suspect.

just my opinion of foreighner(anyway I am not german,neither russian :) )
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Příspěvekod ukropcany » stř 16. bře, 2011 10:17

OK. And who was that? I hope nobody of my friends... 8)
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Příspěvekod rockyjoe » stř 16. bře, 2011 10:31

ukropcany píše:OK. And who was that? I hope nobody of my friends... 8)
Honestly I don t know,but he is from another forum!

Anyway, just for information,the next school I want to visit,before others,it s the Lok Yiu school.I am organizing a visit by a Lok Yiu school in my country
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Příspěvekod ukropcany » stř 16. bře, 2011 10:40

OK
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Příspěvekod toddb » stř 16. bře, 2011 10:53

Rockyjoe: And whereabouts are you from?
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Příspěvekod rockyjoe » stř 16. bře, 2011 11:13

toddb píše:Rockyjoe: And whereabouts are you from?

Can I take this as a secret, for a while?

I think where I come from it is not so important, in this topic.I am just a foreigner.

Maybe I can help you saying that I am not proud of my country.We have a lot of defects :) ..
As I said, I believe in good persons(and martial arts Masters), I don t fix on lineages or countries.

I only spoke about countries in order to analyze different poins of view.
obviously I only refer to the cases which I met personally.It is not about truth.truth is only our personal experience and elabotation about this.
No one has THE TRUTH!
I am a lot relativist, in this sense.
so I can say my point of view,and this can be helpful to you to discover your own truth, similar or different.
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Příspěvekod roza » stř 16. bře, 2011 15:33

rockyjoe
well,using weights is a bit controversial for some lineages - is it your way or your lineage uses it officially?
Btw. I don´t have a problem with it,just asking...
When working on bag,do you train boxing punches or wingchun technics?
Training at home,is it more like applications or shadow boxing or just exact pieces of the forms?Free moving,steps?
You wanted to discuss wingchun and suddenly you are so short-speaking :wink:

Didn´t it helped your progression,when you changed the background and was pushed to think of "what the hell should I focus on,to get the best from the situation?",was pushed to create a new training concept for yourself?
Naposledy upravil roza dne stř 16. bře, 2011 20:07, celkově upraveno 1
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Příspěvekod rockyjoe » stř 16. bře, 2011 16:57

roza píše:rockyjoe
well,using weights is a bit controversial for some lineages - is it your way or your lineage use it officially?
Btw. I don´t have a problem with it,just asking...
When working on bag,do you train boxing punches or wingchun technics?
Training at home,is it more like applications or shadow boxing or just exact pieces of the forms?Free moving,steps?
You wanted to discuss wingchun and suddenly you are so short-speaking :wink:

Didn´t it helped your progression,when you changed the background and was pushed to think of "what the hell should I focus on,to get the best from the situation?",was pushed to create a new training concept for yourself?
well,as I said,I don t believe in lineages, but in the person and in real experience.
for example using the long pole to streght the body is a good idea,from the beginning.the pole is very heavy and unbalanced.in a lot of lineage this is so heavy to be not good for practical fighting.so why does it exist in this shape(really exist different shapes anyway,and lenght)?for me it is streghtening.Of course some organization put it at the last stage as it was a secret, in order to sell the form at a good price.But maybe it requires so much time to spend in the organization,before studying the pole,that when you are ready,you are so old...
I would like to buy one long pole here, but I don t find(I have not a car to transport to home anyway!).
So I have not the pole,but I can use weight in a gym for my purposes.

My lineage basically is my Master and Myself :) .These teachings of course come from an official lineage,but my real lineage,what defines me from a martial point of view, is what I do here and now,and not just imitating my ancestors.

anyway historically there are different lineages in wing chun,and no one is superior.all are method to understand.each one focus on some specific,formally.what they show it is not just wc,but the methods to discover it.in my idea wc would have to be only one family,at the end.
what is important is the sincerity of the person, master and students,in what they do.

on the bag I use Wing chun punches.which are those?straight punches,horizontal punches,palms,butterfly palms,cutting hands,and so on..
always stepping,and moving(wooden dummy steps but not only).sometimes pieces from the forms,but more exactly would be I use for example a kwan sao motion,and this reflect on the form,and not on the contrary.Forms are the way to focus on specific movements importants for fighting.forms are the refining and the study of your own movement,but you learn it in real situations,non from forms.

last question.I learnt this from myself at the beginning,for this reason I decided to study muay thai for a while.this put me in conflict with my old master.I don t mean here muay thai and wc are the same.But we need to verify what we study.
So I changed my master and it was the first time I was really happy.he has not the title of master,but he is the best I have ever seen.and for me he is my Master.
Now I live here,and I would like to invite him here,sometimes,for seminars.But for this I need help.

If not,it is so much hell expensive,for me alone!

of course I said my thinking.It is not the truth,just my experience of things.but experiwence is not theory,is a man life
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Příspěvekod rockyjoe » stř 16. bře, 2011 17:07

I created a blog,in which I write my thinkings,in english.from the blog I take one part for the meaning of the forms,for me!

Dear Kata...
Now I want to speak you about Kata.In chinese is Tao Lu.
In this article,I am going to refer to it as Kata, anyway!

What is the Kata, and what is its importance in learning Martial Arts?

The first thing I want to note, is that the necessity of fighting is born much time before the creation of the Kata.
Fighting is as old as the human beings are.Probably, at the time of the cavemen, those arts were not so refined as today! And more likely, for a lot of time ,in any case, fighting was something related to instinct more than to some kind of martial studies!
I suppose here that only with the growing up of the human societies in the history that someone found interesting, for some reason, cultivating some kind of skill in fighting.
Obviously, we have not any document about the primitive times.Sometimes we can read somewhere about ancient greek people(warriors, or peoples participating to Olympic Games) who trained movements alone, and this is, in a certain sense, as performing a Kata.
Otherwise we hear sometimes that in the ancient India (maybe already colonized by Alexander the Great) there was the tendence to imitate animals or, more in general, the nature, to enter more in symbiosis with the nature itself, in order to appropriate of the fantastic power of the same in a kind of fusion (it was time of Pantheism)to be one with it (a concept that we find a lot in Taoism, too, when taoists say about following the course of the events; incidentally we can say that this is quite similar to the concept of interdependence in Buddhism), for health and for fighting. It is also said that he was Bodhi Dharma (28th patriarch of the indian Buddhism but first patriarch of the Chan/Zen, also), between the 5th and the 6th century, who brought this indian knowledge in the buddhist temples of China, using sequences of movements imitating 5 animals, and other physical exercises, in order to strenght the bodies of the Monks, always dedicated to Meditation and spiritual exercises.Maybe this was a base for the development of martial exercise similar to the Kata as we know nowadays.At a very beginning, there was a stage in which there was the imitation of natural phenomena and the behaviour of the animals, like snakes, tigers, cranes, eagles , praying mantis, crocodiles, monkeys, etc.From this animals was taken movements, concepts, strategies..and so on, in order to fight.
More recently, people, less pantheist than in the ancient times, referred always less to this concept, and the most of this parallelism have been lost.
We know that Kata was used in the last centuries to transmit the knowledge, sometimes inside of families, or inside the military classes.
Since the spreading of guns, martial arts lost a lot of their importance, maybe all. If first they were useful for rebel people, or for some military class, it was senseless, at a point, to teach this combat techniques to resolve conflictive war situations.So in many eastern countries, the Masters became vagabonds, or began to do exhibition on the streets. In other cases these arts turned to be a Do (something like a path for enlightenement) or a hobby/sport (altough the most of people is not able to distinguish the Do from the sport).Then the sport has become professionism in the last days.
To be more clear, martial arts separated from their "humus", the war!So the kata followed the evolution of the martial arts, as hobbies, sport, or whatever.

The modern tendence is to see the Kata as something built from humans for humans, maybe using the science as reference point, more than pantheistic points of view.It means that now martial arts are more secularized, in a sense.Jigoro Kano in Japan, and Wang Xian Zhai in China, begin more than others, to show the effect of the incoming western culture on the eastern martial arts!

I apologize for this long digression, but I think it was also necessary to understand what we're talking about.
To explain the Kata, I needed to say what were martial arts before.Why this?Because martial arts are a Kata.
Kata is not only the vehicle of transmission of many eastern martial arts, but is confused with the martial arts, which carries as well.It is both the messenger and the message!

Nowadays people is confused, because they see Kata as simple ( more or less) sequences from which to begin the comprehension of martial arts.But Kata, as refination of fighting techniques and strategies, is born after the fighting in itself.What before was a method to vehiculate the Qi, and the Intention (but people must already have and show some kind of warrior virtues, and the training, conducted by few persons and controlled by the Master, was very hard), now Kata is the start point of beginning, in a commercial vision of the martial art, as opened not to a few, but to the mass of the public!Someone modified the Kata to create some kind of physical education with martial background adding the word Do, someone else created championships using always the word Do (the confusion I spoke before), someone else tried to create a system with physical and moral targets but preserving the tradition, others entered in a really religious vision of the martial art as a way of life!
In all these cases, the destiny of each single martial art influenced heavily the Kata.

So what the Kata is, for us?Today often they are sequences to pass examinations, not really related to the culture and the historical period that created them.It' s a kind of self defense related to condition that don't exist anymore, altough those arts, if well trained , have their own effectiveness, showed in the ancient times and today at the right time.Kata were born with a why, whithout the knowledge of wich, they are useless.
Kata are vehicle of techniques, concepts of movement, strategies, like sports, but useful not in nowadays no holds barred tournments, but in weaponed and not weaponed conflicts when guns didn't exist and skill was a necessity.Not jokes! So this is about the question: what is more logical and useful for survival and victory in these conditions?
When Kano, who had a very analytical and western spirit, created Judo at the end of 19th century, he spoke about Kata and Randori.Kata for him was the way to study the correctness of the mind attitude as well as the body postures and movements.In his Judo is perfectly visible what the East means by Kata.Is about the attention to the details.Kata and Randori influence one each other, alternatively.It is not about passing from the Kata to the Randori, extrapolating techniques!It is a compromise between the possibility of the self- body movements and the possibility to use them concretely in combat or sparring.Of course the judo has taken pretty at the beginning, an attitude sport and competition oriented, preserving the study of the ancient techniques, and so, of the ancient kata.But This is not important.Here we are defining what is Kata.It' s like a sport, when there is not so much ceremony (something that seems to come from a new age martial spirit, commercial oriented)and you study the best way in order to be effective; only change the field of application.You can think about that!
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Příspěvekod rockyjoe » stř 16. bře, 2011 17:59

zipule píše:I think you don't understand, that czech people expect, that if you are a visitor, that you will act as one. Instead of it you've tried to walk here and say something as "all you did during last years, you did wrong you should do it my way, we in our contry know much more than you". We are not familiar with this kind of manners.

Just now I understood.
But I never said "you all are wrong,we are right".this is how you read.

but it is not definitely my message.

I tried to explain it and I wrote and wrote,to explain what I mean.I invite you to read again..

when I used we,I referred to the fact that we had not the comunism,and the comunism forbid practice of martial arts.
in my country eastern martial arts are since 1930 ,more or less.so I referred to the trend of martial arts,not to the quality of comprehension,better in my country than in yours.only to say there is a degrade of the practice of martial arts(first of all wing chun),wherever,and maybe you are in time to stop this process..

if this is the topic,in my country I have not known so much person that I would like to have as Master.

difficult to be a Master,difficult to satisfy my pretenses.now you can say this is my problem.you are totally right :)
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Příspěvekod roza » stř 16. bře, 2011 21:21

rockyjoe
Before I get to your training,let me clarify some things for you.
We are Czech republic,not former Soviet union - martial arts was not forbiden here.We had first well-known Japanese teachers here in 1920s.
Don´t repeat crap you´ve heard,to prevent us from laugh at you :wink:
What we really didn´t have during commies era were fucking multilevel marketing martial arts schools.
You had them,I hope you guys enjoyed them :D
Joking.....
I hope its ok to correct a foreigner without any mental damage,if he bullshit?
Joking again...
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Příspěvekod roza » stř 16. bře, 2011 22:37

rockyjoe
to your training:
Agreement on long pole exercises.I didnt mention it,coz I didn´t suppose you to have one here.
Try nick PM,he¨s selling the equipment for MA in Praha.Is it so complicated to take it home?I asked you before,where do you live?

I see,I thought your master was connected originally with some lineage...nevermind.I´m the last one who cares.

Agreement on your bag working and decision to study muay thai for a while.

Your big loss is language barrier here,90% of your way is taken as normal way here,you would have a lot in common with us.

To your "Kata essay" - why not.Nothing revolutionary.I personally prefer more functional way,maybe next time.Agree on the angle of view of WangSZ.

Finally we get closer to understand each other.
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Příspěvekod rockyjoe » stř 16. bře, 2011 23:43

roza píše:rockyjoe
Before I get to your training,let me clarify some things for you.
We are Czech republic,not former Soviet union - martial arts was not forbiden here.We had first well-known Japanese teachers here in 1920s.
Don´t repeat crap you´ve heard,to prevent us from laugh at you :wink:
What we really didn´t have during commies era were fucking multilevel marketing martial arts schools.
You had them,I hope you guys enjoyed them :D
Joking.....
I hope its ok to correct a foreigner without any mental damage,if he bullshit?
Joking again...
In jugoslavia and in Bulgaria it was like this:at the time of University I had a colleague from Bulgaria who said me that things like martial arts and movies like Rocky :) were forbidden by comunists!
This was my source,more than 15 years ago!
If he lied,anyway he only knows.But I think at that time his word worthed for me more than our public television!He came from a comunist reign.
I am happy for the not multilevel,but I am sorry to say that in my country even the not multilevel marketing martial arts club are bullshit which try to take the piece of bread that fall from the table of the king!
in my country all the people want to be reach with wing chun and not only the multilevel sellers!We have Wong Sheung Leung divided in a lot of associations,a lot of school derived from Leung Ting,Mai Gei Wong,Pan Nam,Wan Kam Leung,Yip Chun,William Cheung,Siu Yik Man,Bo Kin Wah,Stephen Lam,Sam Lau,and many many more..:). We don t miss anything...:)

They try to compete for which is more traditional,more effective,more interesting,more ....all.

Some guy goes to China to sign the contrat of exclusive in change of recognizement,and photo with sitten chines master..
problem is chinese people too.no one is reliable.a lot of chinese people sell their art for money
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Příspěvekod rockyjoe » stř 16. bře, 2011 23:55

roza píše:rockyjoe
to your training:
Agreement on long pole exercises.I didnt mention it,coz I didn´t suppose you to have one here.
Try nick PM,he¨s selling the equipment for MA in Praha.Is it so complicated to take it home?I asked you before,where do you live?

I see,I thought your master was connected originally with some lineage...nevermind.I´m the last one who cares.

Agreement on your bag working and decision to study muay thai for a while.

Your big loss is language barrier here,90% of your way is taken as normal way here,you would have a lot in common with us.

To your "Kata essay" - why not.Nothing revolutionary.I personally prefer more functional way,maybe next time.Agree on the angle of view of WangSZ.

Finally we get closer to understand each other.
I live out of Prague with my czech gilfriend,and we have not space at home for a long pole.
someone said to try in a shop named Justfighting,or similar.Can you write me exactly the name of this other shop?I want to buy,at the least,butterfly swords!

I didn t mean to say nothing revolutionnary.as you said,this would be just the more simple rule.but if you follow,don t think here all the people does.
I had this experience.there are good and "wrong"people everywhere!

for kata,maybe kata appeal some religious concept.for me is only to train the basics.as in the sport.if you want ,you can not use this word.substance for me doesn t change for a japanese,czech,or english word.
For japanese people,when they learn how to lift a weight,they study the correct form of lifting,to prevent injuries.they call it kata.nothing mystical at all.
It is only a window on eastern culture,to understand the meaning of a misunderstood word.The problem for me was that we,european,gave this word a sense that it has not,so now we are decieved.

the same when you give a person,maybe a girl,an important play in your life,and then you feel decieved.But it depends too if you assign the right place to this person in your life.we have to recognize our responsibility(and it is not always so easy)
rockyjoe
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Příspěvekod roza » čtv 17. bře, 2011 8:08

rockyjoe
I don´t say your bulgarian colleague lied,I just say we are Czech.
Sure it was not easy to get the Holywood movies here too,but thats not the point.

Even if you were right about longer experience with MA in your country,yet your texts show the same level of disillusion from wingchun,which is usual all around the Europe. :D East or west,the same shitmasters,the same promises of "ultimate,unique,one and only original" style,if you have money and patience enough......Now the wave is gone,and the only one who cares of these shits are the "masters" whose living and ego depends on the money of new sheeps,and new sheeps who will pay anyone to keep them safely in the fold of their childish ideas.
I´ve met the guys from close to the all eurocountries during last 15 years,and the feeling is the same....

Your:"there are good and "wrong"people everywhere! " describe it perfectly.

I can´t write exactly the name of shop.Just advised you to contact the guys here,who are transporting the chinese stuff sometimes.PM,Luen etc.
"Out of Prague" is more than 50 km range - hard to help you then.... :D
BAK
roza
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