wing chun praha

[rockyjoe]

rockyjoe
Before I get to your training,let me clarify some things for you.
We are Czech republic,not former Soviet union - martial arts was not forbiden here.We had first well-known Japanese teachers here in 1920s.
Don´t repeat crap you´ve heard,to prevent us from laugh at you
What we really didn´t have during commies era were fucking multilevel marketing martial arts schools.
You had them,I hope you guys enjoyed them
Joking.....
I hope its ok to correct a foreigner without any mental damage,if he bullshit?
Joking again...

In jugoslavia and in Bulgaria it was like this:at the time of University I had a colleague from Bulgaria who said me that things like martial arts and movies like Rocky were forbidden by comunists!
This was my source,more than 15 years ago!
If he lied,anyway he only knows.But I think at that time his word worthed for me more than our public television!He came from a comunist reign.
I am happy for the not multilevel,but I am sorry to say that in my country even the not multilevel marketing martial arts club are bullshit which try to take the piece of bread that fall from the table of the king!
in my country all the people want to be reach with wing chun and not only the multilevel sellers!We have Wong Sheung Leung divided in a lot of associations,a lot of school derived from Leung Ting,Mai Gei Wong,Pan Nam,Wan Kam Leung,Yip Chun,William Cheung,Siu Yik Man,Bo Kin Wah,Stephen Lam,Sam Lau,and many many more... We don t miss anything...

They try to compete for which is more traditional,more effective,more interesting,more ....all.

Some guy goes to China to sign the contrat of exclusive in change of recognizement,and photo with sitten chines master..
problem is chinese people too.no one is reliable.a lot of chinese people sell their art for money

[rockyjoe]

rockyjoe
to your training:
Agreement on long pole exercises.I didnt mention it,coz I didn´t suppose you to have one here.
Try nick PM,he¨s selling the equipment for MA in Praha.Is it so complicated to take it home?I asked you before,where do you live?

I see,I thought your master was connected originally with some lineage...nevermind.I´m the last one who cares.

Agreement on your bag working and decision to study muay thai for a while.

Your big loss is language barrier here,90% of your way is taken as normal way here,you would have a lot in common with us.

To your "Kata essay" - why not.Nothing revolutionary.I personally prefer more functional way,maybe next time.Agree on the angle of view of WangSZ.

Finally we get closer to understand each other.

I live out of Prague with my czech gilfriend,and we have not space at home for a long pole.
someone said to try in a shop named Justfighting,or similar.Can you write me exactly the name of this other shop?I want to buy,at the least,butterfly swords!

I didn t mean to say nothing revolutionnary.as you said,this would be just the more simple rule.but if you follow,don t think here all the people does.
I had this experience.there are good and "wrong"people everywhere!

for kata,maybe kata appeal some religious concept.for me is only to train the basics.as in the sport.if you want ,you can not use this word.substance for me doesn t change for a japanese,czech,or english word.
For japanese people,when they learn how to lift a weight,they study the correct form of lifting,to prevent injuries.they call it kata.nothing mystical at all.
It is only a window on eastern culture,to understand the meaning of a misunderstood word.The problem for me was that we,european,gave this word a sense that it has not,so now we are decieved.

the same when you give a person,maybe a girl,an important play in your life,and then you feel decieved.But it depends too if you assign the right place to this person in your life.we have to recognize our responsibility(and it is not always so easy)

[roza]

rockyjoe
I don´t say your bulgarian colleague lied,I just say we are Czech.
Sure it was not easy to get the Holywood movies here too,but thats not the point.

Even if you were right about longer experience with MA in your country,yet your texts show the same level of disillusion from wingchun,which is usual all around the Europe. East or west,the same shitmasters,the same promises of "ultimate,unique,one and only original" style,if you have money and patience enough......Now the wave is gone,and the only one who cares of these shits are the "masters" whose living and ego depends on the money of new sheeps,and new sheeps who will pay anyone to keep them safely in the fold of their childish ideas.
I´ve met the guys from close to the all eurocountries during last 15 years,and the feeling is the same....

Your:"there are good and "wrong"people everywhere! " describe it perfectly.

I can´t write exactly the name of shop.Just advised you to contact the guys here,who are transporting the chinese stuff sometimes.PM,Luen etc.
"Out of Prague" is more than 50 km range - hard to help you then....

[rockyjoe]

rockyjoe
I don´t say your bulgarian colleague lied,I just say we are Czech.
Sure it was not easy to get the Holywood movies here too,but thats not the point.

Even if you were right about longer experience with MA in your country,yet your texts show the same level of disillusion from wingchun,which is usual all around the Europe. East or west,the same shitmasters,the same promises of "ultimate,unique,one and only original" style,if you have money and patience enough......Now the wave is gone,and the only one who cares of these shits are the "masters" whose living and ego depends on the money of new sheeps,and new sheeps who will pay anyone to keep them safely in the fold of their childish ideas.
I´ve met the guys from close to the all eurocountries during last 15 years,and the feeling is the same....

Your:"there are good and "wrong"people everywhere! " describe it perfectly.

I can´t write exactly the name of shop.Just advised you to contact the guys here,who are transporting the chinese stuff sometimes.PM,Luen etc.
"Out of Prague" is more than 50 km range - hard to help you then....

I agree perfectly with your idea.
Maybe I don t know if the wave is gone or not.In my countries they follow.We have a proverb:each day new chikens grow up.
I think you can understand.
Some times I wonder for example if MMA means for example the end of all the traditional martial arts.Of course,I hope it doesn't.
Of course now there is more competition in the martial arts market.and competition is good to increase the general standard level.
But I think deeply martial arts have a different target in their practice,and this is not to create champions,but self conscious person who are stroger by their consciousness.We don't need warriors today.On the battlefield you can't fight against guns.
In the cages(sport) you need specific trainings,and some of these are good for us too!some other,anyway,not.Of course this is my personal opinion.
In my country people is divided in:
keyboard warriors,fanatic of competition that don t compete but they know perfectly all the fightings of Fedor Emelianenko(anyway my favourite was,a lot of time ago,Genki Sudo,and now a little,not so much, Lyoto Machida...Fedor not)and speak against tradition(trend of the fashion),the My Sifu's guys,and various other kind of martial population.

If I had to individuate myself,I would like to compete,but to many injuries from wrong works that destroyed my body step by step(too much and wrong suwari waza from wrong aikido styles,and wrong postures someone taught me in wing chun,against my knee articulations)in my past.

Now I think wing chun comes from Shaolin temples.It has its own history.From shaolin we have the 3 treasures.fighting,health,and chan.
If I fight but I forget the other two aspects, my martial art is not complete.I have to take care of myself in all those aspects:fighting mind and technics which work with healthy body,and peaceful spirit(and not rage or willing to dominate others,but it doesn t mean that I don't fight).
It is about improving myself.
a lot of time someone says that you can have better results if you do this,and not this one.But the solution is in the individual.Someone express well himself with boxe gloves,some other can t but can express well himself fighting on the ground,someone doing low kicks and knee shots,someone doing wing chun(whichever it means)...
there is not the supreme martial art.each one would decide not by fame,but for himself,which martial art he dresses better,in order to evalue his own physical and spiritual attitude.in this he can be the best,in comparation with himself.
Maybe I can be a better fighter if I do MMA,but if it doesn t satisfy me,is useless.But I can take from MMA the spirit for a good training,and some idea.

I give you one of my last reflexions, that I shared in a forum of my country,speaking with a MMA fanatic.

you do MMA and you say this is complete and total martial art.ok.you say that a MMArtist can compete everywhere with whichever rule.ok.
If the MMArtist fights in a BJJ competition,who is more likey the winner?
If the MMArtist fight in a Muay thai competition,giving up to ground techniques,who will be more likely the winner?
If the MMArtist competes in boxing?
This to say,if you eliminate ground techniques from MMA,you have not muay thai(in MMA they don t study the chap ko phase,because at this distance they grapple differently),and if you eliminate also elbow and knee always from MMA,you have not kickboxing(the sense of distances in MMA is different because you have to counter grappling situation that don't exist in a kickboxing ring),and if you eliminate also kicks,what you have is not boxing(in boxing steps are differents because there are not low kicks,so you can fix on maximazing only punches and bobbing and waving the same).So updated people today speak about MMA specific boxing,MMA specific wrestling,MMA specific kicking,MMA specific groundfight.

all of these sport is not only the technic,but also how to maximize in their context,with appropriate strategies that loose their value out of this context.MMA have its own!

So MMA is not the sum of boxing,kicking,wrestling.in a sense is something different.sometimes you have to give up to some aspect of MMA precedessors,and sometimes you add.In this process,the result can be more(or less,points of view)than the sum of the parts.this is to say that a lot of absolut statements,nowadays,would have to be more relative..

in all these considerations, how we have to collocate wing chun?opened question for everyone of us,each one has to find his personal solution

[roza]

rockyjoe
unfortunately you are right about the chickens.I meant the wave had gone
for my generation.
Don´t worry about the traditional MA - the market is divided due to different interests.As you can´t sell latest Metallica to the tekkno idiot,some people simply like pajamas more than elastic dress.You said it.
They don´t take care of efficiency - if they would,there would be no difference between TMA and MMA.
So the business with TMA will never die,and TMA has been dying for centuries slowly....

What you should worry about is an efficiency of TMA training in comparison with MMA.And I´m not talking about the theoretical opportunities it gives,but about results.

To your MMA reflection - it fits.
How to collocate wingchun?Dependes on so many factors,I would write as long post as you usualy do,at least,to get the basics
Is is necessary for efficiency?

Problem is - I´m pragmatic,I don´t belive in unlimited man freedom and equality and I had discuss this topic here so many times with no effect,that I resign to write about it.

I don´t share your idea of target of MA for 100%,problem comes with the difference between theoretical discussion and reality again.

I don´t belive that we,Europeans, need the theory from the other half of globe to get our body and mind balanced,to be healthy and able to fight thanx to baldy monx from smallwood temple.....Doesn´t it sound strange to you?
Even young Chineses don´t belive it......
Of course I´m showing my point of view today,with some experience.
Some tales and idealism is needed ,at the beginning at least.
If the training process leads to getting rid of these tales,its a good sign.But making a wall from the bricks of tales against the reality is more and more common nowadays...

[rockyjoe]

rockyjoe
unfortunately you are right about the chickens.I meant the wave had gone
for my generation.
Don´t worry about the traditional MA - the market is divided due to different interests.As you can´t sell latest Metallica to the tekkno idiot,some people simply like pajamas more than elastic dress.You said it.
They don´t take care of efficiency - if they would,there would be no difference between TMA and MMA.
So the business with TMA will never die,and TMA has been dying for centuries slowly....

What you should worry about is an efficiency of TMA training in comparison with MMA.And I´m not talking about the theoretical opportunities it gives,but about results.

To your MMA reflection - it fits.
How to collocate wingchun?Dependes on so many factors,I would write as long post as you usualy do,at least,to get the basics
Is is necessary for efficiency?

Problem is - I´m pragmatic,I don´t belive in unlimited man freedom and equality and I had discuss this topic here so many times with no effect,that I resign to write about it.

I don´t share your idea of target of MA for 100%,problem comes with the difference between theoretical discussion and reality again.

I don´t belive that we,Europeans, need the theory from the other half of globe to get our body and mind balanced,to be healthy and able to fight thanx to baldy monx from smallwood temple.....Doesn´t it sound strange to you?
Even young Chineses don´t belive it......
Of course I´m showing my point of view today,with some experience.
Some tales and idealism is needed ,at the beginning at least.
If the training process leads to getting rid of these tales,its a good sign.But making a wall from the bricks of tales against the reality is more and more common nowadays...

even if it will sound strange for you, I agree.

when I say what we have to expect from wing chun, I mean that if whe adhere to the wing chun concept,we choose wing chun and not other martial arts,based on different concept.It is a free choice.
so if we do wing chun ,we already share the ideas of this martial arts system.then, we only have to train it.and not waiting a Master that reveal misterious things called as secrets.Maybe they don t know,since boxer's rebellion and maoism.
the all we can do is to begin from here.what is wc?my idea:this is economic motion(and not no-motion.economic doesn t mean Mr Scroodge in scottish tales),good control of the center straight line(and not only fighting on this line),preference for shot range combat and sticking to the partner/opponent(but not only this),good stepping in stable condition in order to close the gap or to mantain it,breathing,preference on striking(but it doesn t mean there are not some grappling basics,taken from the chum kiu and thrusting fingers form).
there is more,but I marked only the most general aspects in my opinion.for me these are the principal point to study in my idea of wing chun.

other thing that I think to be important is the difference between system and style.
system is wc in itself,in all its richness.

style is the interpretation of the system in relation to our preferences,personal choices,and so on.
So lineage are styles of the same system.they exist only for marketing sometimes,or because Yip Man evidenced more a straight line based work good for his attitude and good to win his eventual opponents in Hong Kong(example) whereas other wing chun people preferred to put emphasis on other things,or because of didactic reasons, or for their more or less limited experience on the Hong Kong roofs, or.....please follow

and we?what do we want to do with all these tools?
Maybe answering, we will create,willing or not, another lineage ))

[roza]

rockyjoe
for me its hard to say whats the concept of wingchun,and its harder and harder with gaining the experience.The more I train, the more the concept feathers away and I start to see common principes instead of differences.
It dependes not only on the level of the student,but on the view of concept itself.I classify the concept into two parts,at least:the concept of gaining the skill and the concept of using the skill.
These two differ each with other,the principles useful for training are no good when fighting a vice versa.
The concept you´ve described sounds very beginning to me,its a usuall crap for new sheep.Its a first limit,to give a line of training to the novices.And it fits to a dozens of another MAs.
If I take first 6 of the aspects you named:
economic motion,
good control of the center straight line,
preference for short range combat and sticking to the partner,
good stepping in stable condition in order to close the gap or to mantain it,
breathing and preference on striking
it gives me a picture of a half of boxing champions of last century.
Btw.part of the named aspects are the results,not the principles of the training,as I explained above.For example -economic motion is not the principle you can use during the training for getting the skill.You must know the real principles to get speed,mobility,power and then,when you perform the whole,watching bystander will go:"jesuschrist,how did you do it,man?this is what I call the economy in motion!!!"
Coz only the skills inside allow you to perform something visual - economy for example here - outside.
So to look for the kungfu instruction to get the skills(speed,power,mobility etc) is better idea for me then to play generalised "BE ECONOMIC,BE ECONOMIC....)tape during the training to my earphones.....

Just to explain how I understand it.

In contrary to your opinion,my one comes from my idea of NONuniqueness of wingchun,"uniqueness" I take just as a product of marketing.
If wingchun wants to reach his limits,it should stop pretending "beeing special",confess being the normal part of chinese kungfu and start to use its proved measures instead of "everythigkillingchainpupupupunchesssss"


Start with 6harmony theory or working wiht kua,check your way of movement from this angle of view and let me know

Yipmans only opponents in HK were the short and the long pipe and the famous rooftops fights have the same value as a kids brawl in the schoolcanteen....
80% of the population are stupid,the smart rest doesn´t like to fight.
Good fighter is not good teacher and the teachers are not good fighters.
Thanx for the exceptions

[rockyjoe]

Yes I agree with all, but if I write all these things in only a post,better to write a book : )

as you said there are principle of use,and principle of trainings.I agree completely.
for example I put in parentesis that economy of movemente doesn t mean no-motion.I could write as well that a good shaped body(one of the tresure I spoke about)must be able to move and expand to all directions,and when you fight you have not to move your arms random.Economic movement has to be efficient movement.An economic but not efficient movement,is not what I mean with the word economic.in the forms there are not only straight movements,and there are a lot of circular ones.Economic means the more economic and efficient movemente to reach the target and hit it hard,without expose to counters.If it is necessary to move a lot for doing this,it means that this was the more economical movement you could do in this actual situation.
So I agree with you and I didn t speak about economical visul effects.

In general when training chi sao,I like to work this with bigger and relaxed movements,and other time more short,but always relaxed(well,not exactly always).
There are a lot of things that you,me,whoever can specify,beginning from these terms.Maybe wing chun is not a poor system.so virtually is infinite!

I agree with the not uniqueness of this system.but as I recognize that MMA boxing is different from the Noble Art of boxing(I speak only about punches,),why have I not to recognize the difference between a wing chun punch and the above?Is it not a nnonsense for you?

to do an example,for better understanding:wing chun forms are performed enough statically.You can justify with the little space in the Red Junks or in Hong Kong houses,in respect of other lineage extra Hong Kong.maybe it is.
other possibility ,for me,is the following>
we can understand wing chun as a short distance combat.why?because a lot of the training is done at contact,similar to wrestling exercises of pummeling,swimming,push and pull,and muay thai chap ko(not exactly the same ok,just similar).in these situations you can t charge a great distance punch.maybe you can deliver a short straight punch(I don t mean definitive)swimming into the opponent defenses, or short hooks or uppercuts.So you use your "wrestling skill" from chi sao in order to penetrate defenses with little aconomical and efficient movements taking good target.
Chi sao studies also this possibility to contact with the partner,keeping balance on his eventual pressure,the skill to mantain the contact and the needing of little spaces to deliver heavy or light hits.But your partner can do the same,so you have not only to hit,but avoid to be a target.so you don t move always in front of you,you don t defend the place where you are,you defend yourself.If you are explosive this can be a good idea.This idea can justify the visual economy of the forms.But maybe you dont find openings to hit,so you can wrestle with wing chun kam na!or maybe you have to open a little the spaces(like in football)and maybe taking distance for not recieving the great pressure of your partner,so you can step to various direction(attention to kicks,in the meanwhile).
I think in short range wing chun is more effective,but it doesn t mean you can t use long distances.but for example even if I like muay thai low kiks,this kind of movement for me it is not linked with the wing chun movements and ideas.Now in wing chun against wing chun you don t need low kicks(in muay thai competition they don t care about double legs),but if you want to go to MMA competition,you need a strategy and a training against that.
But I use low kicks in training to strenght the shin and for conditioning a little.Contemporary I say,this technic is not wing chun but is good for conditioning,the same as da sam sing,but with legs(principle of training,not necessarily of wing chun fighting)

[roza]

rockyjoe
ok,letś not write a book here

You hit the target in the first half of your post.

I don´t get your question on MMA,boxing and wingchun punches.Again please.

I avoid myself from describing wingchun as short range system from simple reason - people tend to understad it the wrong way,they start to think its not important to move,make steps.Then they don´t practise the stepping exercises,which is the biggest mistake,cus these are intended not to jump around,but to teach how to connect whole the body,how to support the structure with the legs,how to develope power for any movement etc etc.
I understand its a great idea how to get money from the lazy people,but its all.
You probably know it,I´m just explaining my position.During the action,sure you spend more time at shorter than long distance.....but I don´t belive it has anything to do with the fact that our forms are so static.
I recommend to look at this from the point of WangSZ yiquan - inner and outer movement.The less is visible,the more is to practise inside.Only then all the short movements could work.
I´m convinced that the original idea was to be able to demonstrate the ideas and inner movements externally latter.My opinion.

I agree with the rest.

[reccol]

Guys, especially rockyjoe - don't you wanna write a little bit shorter posts? It's terrible to read these essays

[rockyjoe]

rockyjoe
ok,letś not write a book here

You hit the target in the first half of your post.

I don´t get your question on MMA,boxing and wingchun punches.Again please.

I avoid myself from describing wingchun as short range system from simple reason - people tend to understad it the wrong way,they start to think its not important to move,make steps.Then they don´t practise the stepping exercises,which is the biggest mistake,cus these are intended not to jump around,but to teach how to connect whole the body,how to support the structure with the legs,how to develope power for any movement etc etc.
I understand its a great idea how to get money from the lazy people,but its all.
You probably know it,I´m just explaining my position.During the action,sure you spend more time at shorter than long distance.....but I don´t belive it has anything to do with the fact that our forms are so static.
I recommend to look at this from the point of WangSZ yiquan - inner and outer movement.The less is visible,the more is to practise inside.Only then all the short movements could work.
I´m convinced that the original idea was to be able to demonstrate the ideas and inner movements externally latter.My opinion.

I agree with the rest.

yes of course.

you are speaking as a good teacher has to do.now we are writing here.
but if we teach some student,we can say SHORT RANGE SYSTEM,and then make physical examples to the students,in which they understand what you mean with SHORT RANGE.

if I say that Tyson boxing is to gain SHORT RANGE,no one would think that Tyson would not move a lot to gain and mantain this distance with taller opponents.
if I say that Cassius Clay boxing is LONG RANGE,,no one would think that Ali' was totally not good in more short distance.

Fighting is a totality,in which we all have our preferences,based on skill,weight,agility,strategy..and so on.

you are right probably,but this is a sickness that affects only traditional martial artists(not only wing chun)and not sporty men

I didn t understand at the beginning ,because we spell like wang Xiang Zhai.Now it is clear.Even there there was confusion.the problem is when people misunderstands.

a great movement is not good as littler one.
a little movement is not good as the no movement.
no movement is like eternal moving

It would seem that you fight just on the place.
instead I think,and it seems you too,this is a training principle(but also the contrary it is true),not so much a fighting one

; )

[rockyjoe]

Guys, especially rockyjoe - don't you wanna write a little bit shorter posts? It's terrible to read these essays

I am sorry.
I beg comprehension,english is not my mothertongue.
nevertheless is a common language to speak

: )

[roza]

rockyjoe
well ,its clear now

[rockyjoe]

rockyjoe
well ,its clear now

this means that we are not going to write this book? : (

[roza]

rockyjoe
we could,but : you know it,I know it,and nobody else cares

Time for plan "B"