savate

[Toman]

For my opinion there can be mice brother or dog or satan lovers....it doesnt matter.

I just wanted to tell you, there are people who are always willing to prove the effectivity of their systems.
The fact that you failed with kali doesn´t say anything about the system itself.
If nothing else I consider it being disgrace to claim that kali is ineffective in real fight therefore it´s proven in many deathmatches. A lot of people can confirm that (I mean the alive ones).

We´d better keep the subject matter.

[savate]

can we then talk very precisely about tactics. I wil share you my points of view about moving in canne and on the other hand standing in Kali and you tell me yours.
There are just facts and not the names (Like Jogo do Pau , Silambam, Kali, Penchak Silat, Escrima ....) that people usually use to promote their business.

One day , when bare foot sports wont satisfy anymore blood wanting gladiators arena, they will allow stick fighting to become a unique system.
And at that time people will start to seek for usefull methods which will bring them results on that kind of tournaments.

And maybe 2010 - First martial art games will be the oportunity?

Thank you for your answers.

[savate]

Yes like always...it seems no arguments anymore

[Toman]

Yeah I admit I don´t have any serious arguments therefore I am not concerned with Kali so much I just like it, on the other hand it wouldn´t
be a worth for me to argue about effectivity with you/anyone. Like I said above I am not an armed conflict specialist. I know there are a lot of people on the forum who are and I have no idea why didn´t they enter the discussion. I just wanted to point that it was childish to claim that something like Kali is ineffective. Thats all.

[Jendis]

... I have no idea why didn´t they enter the discussion.

...because they are not good in English conversation...maybe.....

[Panda]

I only specialized in armed combat from historical weapons point of view (fencing mostly), and the reason why it might seem to you, savate, that kali is ineffective as opposed to canne might be that there is not as much real "hands on" sparring in kali as there might be in canne.
Are you sure it is not because you did not spar with Kali only did drills as opposed to actually sparring with canne that you find canne more effective\could not defend yourself with kali.If so than it is not a flaw in the system but a flaw in the waz it is beeing taught.

[BeN]

Savate, who was your first teacher in la canne (Frenchmen or somebody else)? What were your first experience with la canne?

I didn´t practise Kali ever so I can´t giv you the answer for your question.

[savate]

First I have to say thank for your answers. No I dont want to say that canne is the only way to teach stich fighting. During my praxis and working with many teachers - especially French I found it very effective and fluid in its moving.
The only difference with other systems is not the technique - but tactics and strategy which are the most important elements in fight. What can you do with good techniques when tactics is weak? And UFC and K1 prooved this few years ago.
The difference is similar to fighting in SEMI and LIGHT contact kickboxing.
You know that in SEMI contact only one punch and one kick can end an action and judge stop the fight and give points. On the other hand in LIGHT CONTACT you have to give a point and than you have to protect yourself not to get another from your opponent.

And canne never teaches from the beggining one point system of attacking. You start to feint just after few trainings.
Straight systems of fight when you help yourself also with your hand are maybe interesting- but in reality very dangerous. Stich is not boxing glow. Very light blow on the right target can end a fight. And of course - teaching of discipline from the beggining as full contact is not very inteligent process.
Kickboxing and savate have a plan how to educate step by step. First light contact and than harder. It is just the same like fencing education in old Europe and military sytems at that time.
I can say that American people try to discover America again. Fencing and stick fighting wasnt born on some small islands but in Europe where a lot of money were invest in war machinery during its history. And fencing and bayonet fighting and of course stick fighting were the educational systems which were brought to perfection in its teaching.

Many important books and literature after WW2 dissapear from Europe to USA and other private collections and this is a shame. Especially for Europe and EU which dont want to support its cultural identity. Many decades of briliant mastery of fencing teacher IS BLOWING IN THE WIND

Today many people know Kali and some exotic styles far away from their history and culture background, but this same people dont know nothing about fencing and european stick fighting. Isnt it weird.
It is like during my stay in Japan when I tried to buy Ghi- kimono and they explained me that in their sport shops only sell sport goods for baseball and golf and tennis and they asked me WHAT IS KARATE ACTUALLY?

[BeN]

Thanks for your answer. It was very interesting reading and I agree with you, specially in last part of this article.

[savate]

Did you see Ben some Kali WEKAF tournaments - for example 2006 in Disneyland? And when you compare it with canne de combat european champioships - what do you see?

[BeN]

Sorry, I didn´t see any Kali tournaments, but I saw many videos of canne de combat (it was brilliant). I haven´t a lot of experience so I wouldn´t like to compare this fighting sports.
I would like to start practise la canne in our country. I haven´t much time (I am quite busy), but la canne is very interesting stick fighting. Can you give me advice, how to start training?

[savate]

You have brilliant team in Hungary - that I like very much. Very nice team. You can find them on www.savate.hu
Next option is in Germany - where you have Gerhard Schmitt - very experienced instructor. He works also in ju-jitsu and is really scientist in martial arts.
The last possibility is Slovenia - where they have next week competition and technique seminar of Canne de Combat (http://www.fencing.si) with very large group of cannist. I think if you write them they will accept you for sure.

And I heard also there is a guy in slovakia - but he was not seen on any canne tournament and seminars.

Please - choose one of possibilities in your sorrounding - and if you want to travel larger distances I can give you also some other adresses.

Thank you for your question.

[BeN]

Thank for your answer. I know about seminar in Slovenia, but unfortunately I will be in holiday at the time.

[savate]

Try to write then to ASCA forum - I think these guys know their job very well. I can reccomend you the man name Francis. Really, really top of the tops.
But before of course you can contact Schmitt or Hungarian team.

[pm]

4. dil serie Human Weapon je venovat savate, a je to - ostatne jako zatim vsechny dily (Muay Thai, escrima, karate, savate) bomba. ke stazeni na torrentech

[savate]

yes I saw it on History Channel.
I know Jerome Huon - which is in this film as couch of savate in INSEP.
Many people didnt know nothing about savate but after this documentary our savate friends in USA say that their phone rings all the time and people wants to train savate. They have problems especially in Savate California - where one of the best american teachers Nicholas Saignac teaches with Michael Giordani - film star.

Savate is just on the way to the top with promotion.

Blog about savate - http://www.savate.tk

[savate]

Is there any club in Czech that ever did savate - boxe francaise after WW2 period? Do you have any information?

[sz332]

Hello,

my name is Zsolt Sandor, and I am a cannist from Hungary. I see that you know already our Homepage at

http://canne.tritonis.hu

If somebody from you wants to learn CDC, i have a good news. We have colleges from Czech, and the travelling between Hungary and Czech is only 4 hours. Not much. So, if you are interested having a small seminar (a weekend or so), i think we can do it.

Another good idea to call Mr. Gerhard Schmidt, who is a very decent CDC teacher, really!

About slovakia: as far as i know, only one girl is doing canne in sk, but she learns in France, so there is really nobody from Slovakia.

Please feel free to contact with me. If you have any questions that may be interested by the public, please ask, and I will try to answer it on this forum.

Best regards:

Zsolti

[savate]

hlapci

film of savate - name LA SAVATE 1938 DAVID MILLER produced it
for Goldwyn Meyer



An Original Vintage Theater-Used Linenbacked One-Sheet Movie Poster (measures 27" x 41") from La Savate, the 1938 David Miller French kickboxing sports thriller short ("A Pete Smith Specialty"; about the French sport of kickboxing, which had been around for well over 100 years, but which was reborn in the early 20th century, and was even included as a demonstration sport in the French Olympics of 1924 in Paris!) narrated by Pete Smith (note that Smith first started producing short subjects in 1931, when they were referred to as "Pete Smith Specialties"; he made an astounding 155 of these over the next 24 years, narrating 135 of them, and sometimes he was credited as "a Smith named Pete"; the shorts covered a wide range of unusual subjects, kind of like "Ripley's Believe It or Not")

I found it on a forum

[savate]

La Canne/Savate v Čechách a na Slovensku
Francúzski učitelia sebaobrany a savate na prelome 19. a 20. storočia napr. Pierre Vigny (Vignyho sebaobrana), Jean Joseph Renaud (La Défense dans la Rue) učili pouličnú sebaobranu resp. pouličný savate - prvky box, savate, zápasenie, judo/jiu-jitsu, zbrane, ktorá sa postupne rozšírila do celej Európy i do predvojnovej ČSR.

Vojenská akadémia v Joinville vo Francúzsku organizovala povinné štvormesačné kurzy, ktoré obsahovali tréning La Canne, savate, boxu, šermu a blízkeho boja na zlepšenie predovšetkým fyzickej pripravenosti príslušníkov armády. La Canne/Savate sa teda stali povinnou súčasťou fyzickej, mentálnej i odbornej prípravy francúzskych dôstojníkov a profesionálnych vojakov. V tejto akadémii študoval telesnú výchovu i JUDr. Jindřich Vaníček, neskorší významný sokolský činiteľ.

La Canne/Savate a pouličná sebaobrana v ČSR
Práve JUDr. Vaníček, výborný šermiar, má veľkú zásluhu na rozvoji La Canne/Savate ako športu a cvičenia nie len v predvojnovej ČSR ale i v bývalej Juhoslávii. Bol aktívny aj ako spisovateľ a publikoval knihy "O rohování (box) a šermu holí dlouhou (baton) (1898)", "O šermu šavlí (1920)", "O šermu holí krátkou (1920)". Vo francúzskom boxe/savate (česky "rohování") sa útočí rukami (soty-direkty, ruby-háky) a nohami (kop spodný, vzad, vonkajší). Údery sa podobajú, tu vidieť autorov šermiarsky rukopis, akciám šermu šabľou, napr. ruby sa robili tak akoby boxer chcel súpera seknúť šabľou, podobne soty, akoby chcel bodnúť.

©erm s krátkou a dlhou palicou sa stal súčasťou programu rozvoja telesnej výchovy a športu na niektorých českých školách (tak ako kendo v japonských školách), môžeme to vidieť z archívnej snímky zobrazujúcej hodinu šermu na gymnáziu v Brne, trieda Kapitána Jaroša 4.

Monitoring webu realizuje NAJ.sk
Inštruktori pouličnej sebaobrany preferovali výučbu sústavy Jiu-Jitsu doplnenú o údery a nízke kopy boxu a savate. Napr. Antonínovi Matrasovi vyšla tesne po vojne šikovná príručka sebaobrany, ktorá vysvetľuje túto sebaobrannú zmes. Sebaobrana s krátkou a dlhou palicou sa stala súčasťou systému MS-1 českých expertov Ing. ©pička/Novák. Títo vytvorili modernú vedeckú koncepciu sebaobrany v ČSSR, ktorá v 70-tych rokoch bola prakticky aplikovaná do výcviku armádnych a neskôr i policajných zložiek.

Pouličná sebaobrana v predvojnovej Bratislave
Koncom 30-tych rokov boli bratislavské ulice v dôsledku nestability spôsobenej Viedenskou arbitrážou nebezpečné a plné násilia. Podvratné živly vyvolávali pouličné nepokoje a páchali rôznu kriminálnu činnosť. Vedieť brániť sa znamenalo pre bratislavčanov v tých neistých časoch životnú nevyhnutnosť. Inštruktori sebaobrany podobne ako v Čechách i tu vyučovali pouličnú sebaobrannú zmes resp. pouličný savate obsahujúci prvky box, savate, zápasenie, judo/jiu-jitsu.

Známym znalcom Jiu-jitsu a sebaobrany bol Samuel Lichtenfeld, bratislavský detektív a spoluzakladateľ klubu AK Herkules. V tomto klube sa trénoval box, zápasenie, vzpieranie, gymnastika a pouličná sebaobrana. Tu cvičil i syn Samuela L. Imi, úspešný boxer, zápasník, ktorý neskôr musel emigrovať do Palestíny, kde sa stal inštruktorom fyzickej a bojovej prípravy izraelskej armády. Založil štýl Krav-Maga, ktorý je dnes veľmi populárny. Dá sa povedať, že základom KM je bratislavský pouličný savate, ktorý autora KM naučil jeho otec, obohatený o Imiho osobné skúsenosti z pouličných bojov.